Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Jan 31, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Need to add more skills to this list.

Bladeturn Refrain: 5...17% block chance. really? show me anyone willing to waste a slot on this. Anet has already set the standard for blocking skills, and that standard is 50% or 75% block chance. This and Winds (with a similarly pathetic effect) are not worth the slot in any way. If the concern is having 50% block on everyone... please see Aegis, which is far less work to cast, can have its duration extended, can be echoed, etc.

Song of Restoration: i watched the PvPers nerf this into uselessness because someone felt like having other classes do party wide healing infringes upon the monk. Hmm... PwK, Life, Rejuvenation, Recuperation, Feast of Souls anyone? Regardless of what those guys think, party healing was clearly intended to be a paragon ability from the start, we have an entire line of skills devoted to it. Suggest making this recharge in 10 seconds and possibly reducing its healing. I don't think it would be out of line for it to be a copy of Light of Deliverance with similar cost, recharge, and effect. It isn't a spell so there would not be any easy way to get multiples of it or make it recharge faster.

on a related note... ballad of restoration and aria of restoration could use some help too. One way of fixing them is to make one or more of them into chants that give health regeneration for a set period of time. Let's say that Ballad of Restoration should heal 60 health at some given spec of Motivation, and it recharges in 10 seconds. It could be changed to give +3 health regeneration with a duration of 10 seconds, at which point it ends. It will heal for the same amount as it did before, but because it has a duration the user cannot benefit from multiple copies of it other than extending the duration. This may be a way to control its effect in multi-paragon teams. Song of Restoration may remain as a straight up heal and be immune to this stacking problem, thus making it worthy of the elite slot. As an added (or interesting) benefit, chants with a duration could be used to power centurion's insignia, soldier's fury, recharge aggressive refrain, etc.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jan 31, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I find some of the command pve splits pretty useful actually. SYG, fall back, we shall return, sometimes never surrender. The irony is they work even better with soul reaping than leadership.

lol, i use them in the same way.

i have R/P and N/P builds for heroes that carry SYG and one or more of the following: anthem of envy, anthem of disruption, GFTE, never surrender, fall back. i spec 10 command usually because it gives 15s of coverage on SYG. Since it recharges in 20s that's a pretty good setting. the ranger is prepared shot, read the wind, and interrupts while the necro is a standard sort of minion bomber.

I have no complaints about any of those skills except for the pvp variants, which are too weak.

T-Strudel · Jan 31, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I'd like to see paragons use Assassin's Promise since Anet is okay with that skill being used by all professions. It's a safe bet it won't be nerfed.

Hell, I already do. It's nice to keep up There is Nothing To Fear, and recharge Leader's Zeal directly after use. Keeps my blue bar filled.

I'd like to see targeted shouts/chants/echoes reworked, it just seems odd you are screaming at someone across your aggro, and nobody else can hear it. I'd make targeted shouts/chants/echoes affect adjacent allies, but that might be overpowered.

reaper with no name · Jan 31, 2010, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Onslaught. +25% IAS and +25% IMS, no drawbacks.

It wouldn't really change much of anything, that's why no one needs to fear it. Recuperation, Rejuvenation, Never Surrender, Well of Blood and Well of Power all give mass health regeneration with only one skill and far less work and energy, so putting Mending Refrain back to normal shouldn't alarm anyone.

I meant a permanent 33% IAS.

And how is sacrificing your elite slot for IAS/IMS while putting a ton of points into a terrible attribute not a drawback?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Need to add more skills to this list.

Bladeturn Refrain: 5...17% block chance. really? show me anyone willing to waste a slot on this. Anet has already set the standard for blocking skills, and that standard is 50% or 75% block chance. This and Winds (with a similarly pathetic effect) are not worth the slot in any way. If the concern is having 50% block on everyone... please see Aegis, which is far less work to cast, can have its duration extended, can be echoed, etc.

Song of Restoration: i watched the PvPers nerf this into uselessness because someone felt like having other classes do party wide healing infringes upon the monk. Hmm... PwK, Life, Rejuvenation, Recuperation, Feast of Souls anyone? Regardless of what those guys think, party healing was clearly intended to be a paragon ability from the start, we have an entire line of skills devoted to it. Suggest making this recharge in 10 seconds and possibly reducing its healing. I don't think it would be out of line for it to be a copy of Light of Deliverance with similar cost, recharge, and effect. It isn't a spell so there would not be any easy way to get multiples of it or make it recharge faster.

on a related note... ballad of restoration and aria of restoration could use some help too. One way of fixing them is to make one or more of them into chants that give health regeneration for a set period of time. Let's say that Ballad of Restoration should heal 60 health at some given spec of Motivation, and it recharges in 10 seconds. It could be changed to give +3 health regeneration with a duration of 10 seconds, at which point it ends. It will heal for the same amount as it did before, but because it has a duration the user cannot benefit from multiple copies of it other than extending the duration. This may be a way to control its effect in multi-paragon teams. Song of Restoration may remain as a straight up heal and be immune to this stacking problem, thus making it worthy of the elite slot. As an added (or interesting) benefit, chants with a duration could be used to power centurion's insignia, soldier's fury, recharge aggressive refrain, etc.

Fully agree. Bladeturn Refrain, at the very least, needs to confer a 50...80% block chance, seeing as how it only stops slashing weapons.

upier · Jan 31, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Need to add more skills to this list.

Bladeturn Refrain: 5...17% block chance. really? show me anyone willing to waste a slot on this. Anet has already set the standard for blocking skills, and that standard is 50% or 75% block chance. This and Winds (with a similarly pathetic effect) are not worth the slot in any way. If the concern is having 50% block on everyone... please see Aegis, which is far less work to cast, can have its duration extended, can be echoed, etc.

It's blocking that never, ever, EVER ends.
And it's in Command.

Haven't used this team-build in months because well ... ASSASSIN!!1!! but it worked really nicely.

More on topic:
Certain options need to be trashed first so that we can actually take a realistic look at what the paragon is offering. A lot of the things seem bad because of how insane the best options are.

Tenebrae · Jan 31, 2010, 11:20 AM // 11:20

I agree with Khomet in almost all points but the thing is that Paragons are very tricky and so its balance is really hard. I think its because :
1- They use shouts/chants/echo ; wich are hard to interrupt ( many of them dont even have cast time ) and are impossible to remove once casted .
2- They are a "support" class but they overcome that role and turn into a impressive defender/attacker in a matter of seconds and when you have a good number of them they become unstoppable .

I gotta say Sfury changes are retarded yes ( see Onslaught ) but there are only a few skills that need certain .... i wouldnt say buff , maybe some rework. Its not really needed in general but in the Moti line ? its just plan BAD. That att line doesnt work even having 5 paragons in your party .... damn that means something.

So resuming , some skills need some rework but most of all , damn buff + rework of Motivation skills is needed.

Lusciious · Jan 31, 2010, 12:40 PM // 12:40

IMO, you guys just need to think out of the box .

8 paragons can survive PvE and vanquish pretty easily .

can 8 warriors survive ? can 8 rangers survive ? etc ..

Paragons are one of the only few classes that can survive even in HM in a party by themselves .

You just gotta think out of the box .

But i have to agree, there are many useless paragon skills that see no use in PvE and PvP. I'd hope to see some changes to them to make paragons more popular.

jazilla · Jan 31, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...23#post5007823
I agree with you completely. It is also really lame being able to only run a very small amount of primary builds in RA as well.

Desert Rose · Jan 31, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

One problem with echos is, once they are up, that they can be keep up eternal with ease; this can make even echos with a comparatively weak effect like Mending Refrain overpowered.
A possible solution to this might be to limit the maximum duration of an echo, i.e. 90 seconds. This way you can give echos stronger effects because they need to be reapplied and can therefor be contered.

Shriketalon · Jan 31, 2010, 11:06 PM // 23:06

You know what else would help?

Add an icon on the party member that indicates "Is affected by a shout or chant."

They have them for hexes, for conditions, even for weapon spells, but not for chants and shouts. This should change.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 01, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

IMO, you guys just need to think out of the box .

8 paragons can survive PvE and vanquish pretty easily .

can 8 warriors survive ? can 8 rangers survive ? etc ..

Paragons are one of the only few classes that can survive even in HM in a party by themselves .

You just gotta think out of the box .

But i have to agree, there are many useless paragon skills that see no use in PvE and PvP. I'd hope to see some changes to them to make paragons more popular.

I think this can be done with most any profession... Rt, E, N, Me, D can make decent (or beyond decent) healers and protters with the right build, and I've seen groups of all warriors and paragons clear FoW and other places. But I hear what you are saying, paragons are very versatile and this is one of the things that initially made them my favorite profession. Ritualists have the same kind of versatility imo. They are not damage or defense or healing or utility, they are all of these things.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 01, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

You know what else would help?

Add an icon on the party member that indicates "Is affected by a shout or chant."

They have them for hexes, for conditions, even for weapon spells, but not for chants and shouts. This should change.

Definitely! For the typical party-wide shout or anthem I don't think this is a big problem but it certainly is for the single-target shouts, echoes, and refrains. How can you tell when Angelic Bond (old version) or Blazing Finale or Make Haste has worn off so that you can refresh it? You can't, you can only guess. This is an oversight on Anet's part IMO, this type of skill should have an icon like weapon spells or enchantments. (perhaps a tiny bugle or horn?)

As it stands now such skills are better suited for use by heroes who can automatically maintain them on all the proper characters with their omniscience and instant targeting capability.

drkn · Feb 02, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

part of the problem with paras is lack of the game rebalancing after they got introduced. compare charge!, incoming! and fall back! for example, you'll notice something weird. also watch yourself! should be a paragon skill, that's pretty obvious.
but then, whole tactics line would have to be remade, followed up by additional game tweaks. there was time for it upon nf release.

AmbientMelody · Feb 02, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Definitely! For the typical party-wide shout or anthem I don't think this is a big problem but it certainly is for the single-target shouts, echoes, and refrains. How can you tell when Angelic Bond (old version) or Blazing Finale or Make Haste has worn off so that you can refresh it? You can't, you can only guess. This is an oversight on Anet's part IMO, this type of skill should have an icon like weapon spells or enchantments. (perhaps a tiny bugle or horn?)

As it stands now such skills are better suited for use by heroes who can automatically maintain them on all the proper characters with their omniscience and instant targeting capability.

This suggestion deserves it's own thread, imo.

I can't really understand Anet never thought of it themselves ...

MagmaRed · Feb 02, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Definitely! For the typical party-wide shout or anthem I don't think this is a big problem but it certainly is for the single-target shouts, echoes, and refrains. How can you tell when Angelic Bond (old version) or Blazing Finale or Make Haste has worn off so that you can refresh it? You can't, you can only guess. This is an oversight on Anet's part IMO, this type of skill should have an icon like weapon spells or enchantments. (perhaps a tiny bugle or horn?)

As it stands now such skills are better suited for use by heroes who can automatically maintain them on all the proper characters with their omniscience and instant targeting capability.

I agree that an icon to indicate a shout/chant would be useful, but it won't completely sole the problem you indicate. I often am using 2-3 shouts/chants at the same time, and have trouble remembering which one is on which person and will expire soon or already did. But think of it like enchantments. You can see that a party member is enchanted, but is that Ele enchanted with the Guardian you cast on it, or their Attunement? Does that warrior have Vigorous Spirit or Tainted Flesh on it? The only way to know which shout/chant expired would be to have them each get a different icon, but that won't happen.

Would still like to see an icon show up though.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 02, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

part of the problem with paras is lack of the game rebalancing after they got introduced. compare charge!, incoming! and fall back! for example, you'll notice something weird. also watch yourself! should be a paragon skill, that's pretty obvious.
but then, whole tactics line would have to be remade, followed up by additional game tweaks. there was time for it upon nf release.

perhaps Anet can clarify this, but in my opinion Paragon is just a tactics warrior taken to the next level. Warrior and Paragon both have similar armor, shields, and weapon damage, both use adrenaline, and their skills complement each other. Or rather, paragons amplify warriors... warriors don't do much for paragons. The tactics shouts are better used by a paragon because he is in the center of a group (instead of chasing down enemies) and will almost always affect everyone. Anyways it is pretty clear to me that paragon is simply the tactics shout mechanic evolved in the same way that the ritualist evolved the ranger's spirit summoning.

That said, there should have been (and needs to be) more control over shouts and anthems and I think this is the main complaint people have about paragons in pvp. Conditions and hexes can be removed, enchantments can be removed. There's no way to negate the effect of a spirit but if you kill the spirit the effect goes away. With shouts there is no way to strip it at all, even if the shouter dies. I am not really in favor of more paragon hate but IMO there should be more skills that negate or disable shouts, and with these in play there would be more ways to counter paragons (and tactics warriors) and then the rampant nerfing could stop. perhaps if Watch Yourself, Shields Up and SYG weren't nerfed all to hell there would be an easy defense against ranged physical attackers like paragons and spike rangers. oh wait... been there done that. IMO one of the fundamentals of the game is checks and balances, or counters for any given skill. they took away the counters for ranged attackers, is it any wonder that there were soon complaints that ranged attackers do too much damage? well obviously, that is a natural result of removing such defensive skills.

ideas for skills to counter shouts, anthems, etc.:

what about a spirit that negates all shouts within range? powerful, yes... but spirits can be killed. ritualists and rangers could use this.

why don't mesmers have anti-shout skills? they can shut down any other type of character, it is definitely in their job description. what about a hex that makes a character unable to be affected by shouts, chants, anthems, echoes, refrains...

why don't the necromancer skills that affect shouts have more utility so that people carry them. their focus is too narrow. what about a spell or hex that removes any shout-like effect on a character and prevents further shouts from affecting them? this could work like enchant stripping, either strip one, two, or all. mesmers and necromancers are naturally suited for this type of skill.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 02, 2010, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I agree that an icon to indicate a shout/chant would be useful, but it won't completely sole the problem you indicate. I often am using 2-3 shouts/chants at the same time, and have trouble remembering which one is on which person and will expire soon or already did. But think of it like enchantments. You can see that a party member is enchanted, but is that Ele enchanted with the Guardian you cast on it, or their Attunement? Does that warrior have Vigorous Spirit or Tainted Flesh on it? The only way to know which shout/chant expired would be to have them each get a different icon, but that won't happen.

Would still like to see an icon show up though.

/signed

different icons for different shouts or anthems is too much to hope for IMO, and possibly very confusing. As it stands the status bar is a binary sort of indicator, there are only two states; e.g. "hexed" or "not hexed". So if a character is affected by shouts you get an indicator no matter how many there are.

This could get confusing fast though with the ease and speed at which paragons are chanting. IMO there should only be an icon for targeted shouts or echoes or refrains, because these are the ones that you might want to maintain or refresh if they wore off. The non-targeted shouts and anthems will typically be spammed on recharge so the indicator would be less useful for them and it would hide the status of the targeted shouts.

Essence Snow · Feb 02, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Going to have to agree that Paragons are the "Red-headed step-childs" of GW. Having one useful bar in PvE is beyond boring. Just out of curiosity......does anyone actually use spear mastery? Seems like command is it for paras. As for buffing para skills in PvE making mods harder.....Who has ever been pwned by a group of paras?..Only their rezing is slightly annoying..their dmg is laughable. Maybe if the mobs had SY or TnTF then it would matter but as it stands now.....
Having every profession and playing every profession I find paras least interesting to play. I really want to play my para....but there is almost no reason to as I can do everything better on another profession except imbagon. Plus groups will not accept more than one para, and the one that is accepted has to be imbagon. I know I am not alone seeing this as flawed. (here come the qq sf quotes...at least there are 5 options in that bar)
I guess the main point.....as you have heard b4..is that it would be nice if paras had another option in PvE. I am not sure how things pertain in PvP..as I dont like PvP (way too many jerks in PvP) I am simply referring to PvE. Plz include para consideration into the next balance/update.

Desert Rose · Feb 02, 2010, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I am not really in favor of more paragon hate but IMO there should be more skills that negate or disable shouts, and with these in play there would be more ways to counter paragons (and tactics warriors) and then the rampant nerfing could stop.

It's not that easy. If you buff shouts because they can be keeped in check with those counter skills they will be overpowered if you don't bring them, which means that you need to bring them everytime because you don't know if you face a team that use shouts/paragons. This increases the number of required skills for a teambuild and therefor decreases build variety.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Just out of curiosity......does anyone actually use spear mastery? Seems like command is it for paras.

I don't understand the meaning of the second sentence, are you insinuating that you are forced to use spear mastery or that it's not beneficial to spec into spear mastery?
Anyway, properly any half-decent paragon players specs at least 9 points into spear mastery, more likely 12 or more.

Essence Snow · Feb 02, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

I don't understand the meaning of the second sentence, are you insinuating that you are forced to use spear mastery or that it's not beneficial to spec into spear mastery?
Anyway, properly any half-decent paragon players specs at least 9 points into spear mastery, more likely 12 or more.

It is geared more to asking if anyone uses Spear Mastery builds. U know a build that focuses more on SM skills than command, PvE Only, motivation(not like this is used either), or Imbagon.